ADMINISTRATOR INTERVIEW

Greenfield, Private School
June 5, 1992
 
 
Q.   Can you tell me about an incident that happened to you in
     which your work life was influenced or shaped by the board
     of trustees?
 
A.   My workplace --
 
Q.   Well, decisions that you make that are influenced by the
     board.  Can you tell me about a time when you felt that
     influence in the decision that you made?
 
A.   Well, if you're --
 
Q.   It could be in the selection of a teacher or related to
     curriculum -- scheduling of classes --
 
A.   None of those.  I mean, we don't view that as their role.
     Nor do they.  I mean, there has never been involvement of
     the board instructing me about what teachers to hire or not
     hire, they've never been involved in the interviewing
     process, there's never been any discussion with the board
     about scheduling, they have never been involved with
     anything having to do with college guidance or
     administrative activities of the school, period, you know,
     so I can't -- nothing really comes to mind.  There are times
     when people who happen to be board members and also happen
     to be parents who I have solicited their help on something,
     but there's no involvement with them in the day-to-day
     administrative tasks.
 
Q.   Can you tell me about an incident in which your work life
     was influenced or shaped by federal or state programs or
     mandates?
 
A.   As an independent school we have really no connection with
     either.  We do get some money for math science and we get
     some money for the library.  That comes through XXX
     School District and we simply buy a piece of equipment and
     we're only shaped by the fact that we have to spend the
     money in the direction they want us to spend it in.  As far
     as the state is concerned, and, by the way, those things are
     the property of XXX, there our property but as an
     independent school if we were ever to close, they would go
     to the XXX School district, and that is why it is
     administered through the public school system.  As far as
     the state is concerned, in that we choose, though we do not
     have to do this, in that we choose to be accredited by the
     XXXX Department of Education, in that we choose to be
     accredited by the North Central Association, in that we
     choose to be accredited by the Arizona Association of
     Independent Schools, all of these various groups have
     certain standards related to the teaching staff and in terms
     of the facilities and etc.  So in those regards we adhere to
     the minimum standards, like everybody has to have a B.A.,
     for example, the people have to be trained in the areas that
     they're teaching in, you know, just very common kinds of
     things that we would do by ourselves anyhow, so we don't
     look at it as an imposition; it just rather gives us further
     credibility in the public by having all these various
     accrediting agencies bless us.  But as independent schools,
     they don't require that everybody, for example, is
     accredited by the state.  And if we did -- if they did
     require that, we probably wouldn't be involved.  The issue
     is not that our people are not prepared, what they sometimes
     are missing, particularly when they come from other states,
     is like Arizona history and reading.  I mean, they've got
     more than the vast majority of people related to their
     qualifications to teach those subjects.
 
Q.   So they don't have to be state certified to be accredited?
 
A.   That's right.  But what happens is that many of ours are but
     it's not required in any of these organizations.  So we
     really don't have to follow -- they make distinctions
     between independent schools in terms of specific things like
     that.
 
Q.   Can you tell me about an incident in which your work life
     was influenced or shaped by legal or judicial judgments?
 
A.   No.  What comes to mind in public systems are, of course,
     desegregation and those kinds of things, but with us we're
     not imposed upon in any way because we don't take federal
     funds. We adhere to the spirit of all those kinds of things
     but it's not a formal obligation.  There has only been one
     suit in all my 12 years here which related to a tree falling
     down, hitting a car, and there was a dispute between the
     county and us as to who owned those trees.  
     
It resulted in the county and us paying about $1,000 each. So we adhered to that legal decision. In fact, I'm not sure it ever went to the courts, actually; I think it was just mediated between the county and us. So I don't really think of -- oh, asbestos. We had a problem with the asbestos regulations. Any time that regulations that come down through the federal government, it's pervasive in terms of health reasons, you know, it's pervasive throughout our society, we obviously have to adhere to those things. Fortunately we really didn't have any asbestos on this campus.
I think there was only one place and it was removed
     and we didn't have to go through some huge deal.  We had
     people come in and test.  We have to adhere to, of course,
     general health standards that exist in Pima County and the
     state.  We test our water on a regular basis, you know, we
     adhere to fire regulations, we have our fire drills once a
     month, you know, all those things; I look at that question
     that you asked as those things that go beyond the norm for
     just being a business, everybody has certain standards that
     you have to reach.  I don't see anything beyond those.
 
Q.   Can you tell me about an incident in which your work life
     was influenced or shaped by the parents?
 
A.   Yeah, I mean, we are in service to our clients; our clients
     are our parents.  Therefore, we keep our ears open and if we
     have a lot of complaints about an issue, then we are going
     to be responsive to that and open for suggestions.  Many
     people have suggestions about things; let me give you a
     couple of examples.  One was there was a number of parents
     that wanted kind of a closing ceremony at the end of the
     eighth grade.  My philosophy has always been, and this is
     part of the marketing strategy, where Greenfield is an
     institution that goes 4-12, you don't graduate from eighth
     grade because we didn't want to do anything that would
     encourage kids to think that they had completed a level and
     off they go to South Point or public school or whatever.
     However, the idea came up, and I believe this was from
     parents, and it wasn't so much graduation but what we would
     define as a moving-up ceremony.  So once I was able to make
     that mental jump, I thought it was a great idea, and then we
     designed it so that our seniors were on the stage.  They
     welcomed the eighth graders into the high school and the
     eighth graders came from the audience and sat in the
     senior's seat and the senior went down to the audience.  Now
     that allowed a continuity between our divisions without the
     sense of you're completing the eighth grade so you can take
     off someplace else.  That happened a couple of times.  There
     was parent interest in having an after-school bus.  I felt
     it wasn't really realistic but at the time that there were
     some parents that were really pressing for that, we found it
     economically made some sense because there were enough of
     them to do it.  So we dropped kids off, we developed a plan,
     we hired a driver, the parents shared the cost and we did
     it.  It fell by the wayside after while because there wasn't
     enough interest in doing it.  So we serviced those parents
     at that particular time and responded to them.  There will
     be at times complaints about a teacher.  For example, this
     year I've had some complaints about an elementary school
     teacher and it was a new teacher that had taken over for a
     very popular teacher, and I had to deal with those
     complaints.  It was not that I let the teacher go nor did
     anybody ever get to that point, and I resist those kinds of
     pressures, you know, because you don't know what all -- you
     have a ____ mentality on the part of some kids and they will
     influence others, but I will respond to the parents to show
     that I'm on top of it and that I'm interested in their
     concerns and I try specifically to what their complaints
     are.  Now it happens that that person, at the time I was
     going to make a contract decision about her, mentioned to me
     that she was going to go back to Colorado so it never got to
     an issue with her.  I was going to let her go.  But parent
     voice is something I listen carefully to.  Obviously, I
     observe teachers and I try to be as fair as possible, but
     I'm not in there all the time, so as part of my collection
     data, I collect information from kids and the parents, and I
     don't do it behind the teacher's back, I let them know what
     is being said and how they are able to respond to it, and
     give them an opportunity to respond as well.  And I had
     another teacher that was like that as well this year in
     social studies.  So I'm open to their comments there.  The
     parents wanted to do a rummage sale in the parent's
     association.  That's something that -- well, they did it,
     that was more their concern, it wasn't so much that I
     responded to change.  There was discussion about having
     ______________________ in the lower school and that was an
     interest on the part of some parents and we did institute
     that.  It wasn't that we were ever against it but we have to
     have like a critical mass because it's an additional
     expenditure, and we have to be very careful as to where our
     priorities are.  Some parents wanted the wind nets for our
     tennis courts and that was through parent initiatives that
     we got that.  From a policy point of view, we have parents
     that are on the board and they at times will, you know, as
     parents, they talk to their kids and they have an interest
     in one thing or another, but you see it's not
     administrative, it's more from a policy point of view.  And
     it's usually -- it usually comes from the executive
     committee, and there are a couple of parents on that as
     well.  But it hasn't been -- I can't think of anything that
     I feel, from a board perspective, as a totality that is
     imposing upon me.
 
Q.   Okay.  Tell me about an incident in which your work life was
     influenced or shaped by a professional organization with
     which you identify.
 
A.   Well, you know, when you bring up all these variety of
     groups as probably a composite they have an effect on you in
     a variety of different, subtle ways that you may not
     necessarily give them credit for.  You know, you don't know
     what's impacting you at any point in time when you are as
     busy as I am.  I read a lot, I'm involved with different
     associations, and sometimes I don't know where an idea comes
     from.  As though suddenly I want to do it, you know.  So to
     say that -- I don't necessarily know -- I can't help but
     think that these various groups have an impact on me perhaps
     more than I think, but it's not a clear, you know, a board
     pounding my head to fire this teacher, I mean, that's
     something I'll remember, it's more subtle and obviously more
     acceptable to me whatever is happening.  We have -- there's
     an organization called the Independent School Management and
     they directly write and advise independent schools.  Now
     they were hired by the board to help develop our long-range
     plan.  The consultant there was good, he provided
     appropriate direction to get this done, and in that plan,
     which is actually developed by more than 125 people that
     represented all our constituencies, including students,
     teachers, alums, former parents, parents, board members,
     former board members, and administration, but it was ISM, I-
     S-M, that helped coordinate that endeavor.  Structurally, of
     course, the content is our content.  So in that sense they
     have influenced us.  They also put out a, basically about
     once every six weeks, they put out a publication and this
     publication is influential because they're very
     knowledgeable about what's going on in the independent
     schools.  For example, they wrote one recently on parent
     associations and how you really are making a mistake if you
     allow parent associations to become their own entity,
     controlling their own money, making decisions, they become
     almost policy deciders, you know, and how the board must be
     in control of those situations.  It's delicate because you
     want to give parents a sense of freedom and a sense of
     responsibility, a sense of drive, and they can become too
     imposing, you know, they don't have the same motivation, so
     it's delicate, but they're very clear on how those things
     should be managed.  So they write these little two-page
     articles that will have influence about how you should run
     your school.  And it's just helpful hints.  You gather
     things to try to be as effective as you can and you can pick
     from this and you pick from that.  We also have the national
     associations, called the National Association of Independent
     Schools.  I was a trustee for four years for this national
     group and as a trustee, I was aware of what was going on in
     the country about a variety of different issues, and during
     my period of time, there was a real interest on the part of
     independent schools related to marketing.  Now that's also
     an interest to Greenfield.  there were certain things that
     came from my exposure as a director, as a trustee, that I
     was able to bring back to various studies for the whole
     independent school movement that I thought would be useful
     to Greenfield's Country Day School.  Those two organizations
     for the independent school are probably the most impactful.
     I think that -- we just recently joined North Central, which
     we didn't have to do, our accrediting agency has really been
     the Independent School Association, but we did it just
     because I think that getting insight from our public school
     colleagues, it will help us grow, so they have publications,
     so they haven't been dominant on us at all at this point.  I
     think they could be as time goes on, you know.  People go to
     different conferences and pick up different kinds of
     information.  So I guess that would be -- you know, the
     other professional organizations that the teachers belong
     to, the National Council of Teachers of English, social
     studies, mathematics, all these different things, but I
     leave it up to them to become informed about what it is.
     The University of Arizona at times can be impactful.  This
     hasn't happened in a long time but there was one point where
     I invited the deans of various -- or particularly good
     professors out to Greenfield and they would meet with the
     other dean of science up here, and he met with the science
     and math people, and we have good cross-fertilization as to
     what his expectations are for kids coming to college and
     that was good for our teachers to hear.  That's a different
     kind of organization, professional organization, than you
     might be referring to.  I think that's about it.
 
Q.   Can you tell me about an incident in which your work life
     was influenced or shaped by the students?
 
A.   Well, the right of the parents, you know, (couldn't
     understand) and I know that we are in service to our
     students and our parents and we simply keep our eyes and
     ears open as to what their needs are.  A lot of things are
     more subtle, you know, they're kind of nuances of change.
     It's not massive kinds of things; it's not like, you know,
     it could be a subtle change in rule or they want to have an
     extra dance, it's those kinds of things, it's nothing of
     major import, it really doesn't change things around.  When
     I first came here, we had the senior prom and then it was
     the students that initiated the concept of a winter prom, so
     we did that.  A lot of it relates to social things that they
     want to do and these change from year to year, I mean, as to
     -- they do change from year to year.  I can't recount
     various things that have happened but I know there was one
     year where they wanted to serve the homeless more than we
     were doing and they developed a whole program during
     Christmas time where everybody brought in food and then it
     was distributed during the Christmas time.  There was the
     making of over 1000 sandwiches by various classrooms to pass
     out, again, to the homeless and this was purely student
     initiated.  There will be times when, just like with the
     parents about teachers, I placed myself, I'm looked upon, I
     make it clear to the teachers and to the kids that I'm an
     advocate of neither.  I am a facilitator and that when there
     is difficulty, I want them both to feel, as well as parents,
     that I'm going to be a fair listener, and based on the
     information I gather, then I'll try to help a decision to be
     reached.  But I don't want the kids to think that I'm
     automatically going to descend the teacher; I will listen, I
     will posit some ideas that I think the teacher may be coming
     from, but I also listen to the kids, so the kids look at me
     as a person that they can come to without the thought that
     I'm just going to defend the teacher and they're going to
     have to beat me over the head to get their point of view
     across.  But I challenge the kids in terms of being sure
     that they've got the kind of information they need.  Kids
     come here for a change -- for example, I'll give you an
     example.  We have a situation where the seniors can leave
     campus and the junior class feels because they can drive
     that they should also.  So there'll be a group of kids that
     will come and talk to me about that.  And my response will
     be then for them to develop their ideas.  We have a problem
     in the parking lot about cars coming in and out and about
     kids speeding back in order to make the bell, and that's a
     senior privilege, etc., etc.  I said if you can come up with
     a good rationale, why don't you present it before the
     faculty, which was done.  It happened to be voted down but
     at least the kids thought that they had an opportunity and
     that people at least listened and considered what their
     opinions were and then they accepted it.  Each junior class
     at various times will raise these issues.  It's not
     automatic for us.  We came close to it the last time because
     they had some fairly decent arguments about why they should
     be able to go and how they would monitor it so it would be
     safe and sane.  I guess then the influence comes if I get
     the sufficient number of complaints on the teacher, I would
     at times get groups of kids with the teacher, you know,
     saying now we have evaluations, I think that probably is the
     area of largest influence if they really are upset about
     something.  Kids wanted -- here's an example -- kids
     wanted -- some kids came to me about wanting a high school
     boys volleyball team.  Well, we did it, because they had
     ideas how they were going to raise the money and the coaches
     they wanted, it seemed to fit in terms of time, so we did
     it.  I can't think of courses per se that they have ever
     strongly argued for; that's come from parents on occasion,
     going back to parents, having some parents worried that
     their kids are not getting -- like if they saw when they
     first came in here that the last class we did was college
     algebra and they wanted some calculus, by the time the kids
     got there and we had sufficient number, we offered calculus.
     We're responsive to both parents and students based on what
     we feel their needs are.  If there are enough of them that
     make it feasible and that's maybe only three students, you
     know, like this next year we're going beyond calculus, we're
     going into the second year of calculus because we've got so
     many good math students.  We're not talking about a lot;
     we're talking about five, but that's sufficient for us to
     provide that additional course that we're spending the money
     to do that course and that comes by looking at the needs of
     the kids and -- the needs of the kids primarily.  They
     sometimes argue rules and we -- before I got here, for
     example, this was a long time ago, there was an honor system
     which the students felt was not as effective as they would
     like, so they helped create with the faculty the new
     disciplinary system.  We have just gone through a series of
     town halls where we have home rooms, and then we have the
     middle school and the upper school meet separately, and
     discuss various rule changes that they would like to see.
     During the summer there is going to be a group of faculty
     who are now going to consider all of those things and make
     some changes based on those suggestions.  So the bottom line
     is that we're very open to the kids.  I mean, we
     administratively like them to feel that it's an open door,
     that they shouldn't have hesitancy about seeing us about
     things, that we try to be balanced and fair, that our
     expectation of them is that they will have ideas,
     constructive ideas, it's simply not to come in to criticize,
     and if they're going to come in to criticize, we usually
     tell them to go back and figure out how they're going to
     help resolve the problem.  We're very big on trying to teach
     responsibility here.  So that's what we do.  Now teachers
     are next, I suppose.
 
Q.   Tell me about them.
 
A.   (Laughter)
 
Q.   How do teachers influence?
 
A.   Right.  Teachers are probably the most influential group.  I
     don't know if it's necessarily my style as head of the
     school, but there are many decisions that I'll just leave up
     to the faculty.  The bottom line is that if you're going to
     have   
anything happen, you have to have the people who are responsible for enforcing it. Have to believe in it and feel that they're a part of the decision-making process. It's rare that I simply impose, you know, it's -- everybody, I think, recognizes across the board that I'm the ultimate decision maker and can do something differently.
  It's my
     responsibility to be able to explain it and convince and
     persuade, if they came up with a decision and I had another,
     it's my responsibility simply not in an authoritarian way
     impose a decision but state my argument strong enough that I
     convince enough people to change it.  I don't think I've
     ever been put in a position where people just don't see my
     point of view and I've had to impose it because I know I'm
     right.  It has never got to that.  But there will be many
     decisions that relate to discipline, that relate to kids
     being placed on probation or being not asked back to the
     school, that are fully faculty decisions.  Now there are
     times when a faculty will say a kid may not come back, then
     I'll decide that I'll put them on probationary status
     because they're not dealing with the parents in the same way
     that I am, they don't have as much knowledge, and I try to
     explain to them, or I feel that the faculty may not have
     been as clear to the parents as to the direction as to what
     will happen as I think they should.  For example, they said
     well, we told the parents this and that, but I find nothing
     in the file about any correspondence related to homework or
     poor tests or that if the kid has gotten a D or an F in
     something and they didn't send the note out, you know, well,
     then they have failed in terms of their administrative
     aspects.  Now that doesn't happen often, but I'm giving that
     as an example that if something were to occur like that, I
     could override the decision for a kid not coming back and
     maybe place them in an intermediate step about a compromise
     where someone is placed on probation.  I get their input on
     a lot of things.  You know, I seek their approval in hopes
     that they will be full participants in any kind of major
     decisions or changes that we do.  The middle school a couple
     of years ago felt that it needed improvement in a variety of
     different ways.  The middle school teachers got together
     under some leadership administratively, not necessarily by
     myself, I think Suzanne was involved in that, I was involved
     and brought some people in, there was a parent who was the
     head of counseling at the university, he was instrumental, we
     brought him in for some workshops, and from that we decided
     to make some significant changes in the middle school as to
     how we were administering our discipline system which we --
     we had a point system for the high school which was also in
     the middle school and we changed that around to a different
     kind of system in the middle school.  But that was, I would
     say, more than anything else, it was a couple of people
     picking up from the middle school that really followed
     through on that and then sought approval and they were
     approved without any problem because they had done a good
     job in terms of their work.  That was probably the most
     significant change that we've had here in some time in
     reorganizing the middle school which was more than anything
     else a teacher-directed effort.  Teachers obviously have a
     big say in terms of their coursework.  They are given the
     freedom, we don't have any district, you know, Greenfield-
     imposed curriculum, we try to find teachers that have a
     wealth of knowledge and they know what kinds of support
     materials and texts that will allow them to be the most
     effective with the kids.  They have to discuss it with me,
     they have to come up with a balanced scope and sequence,
     they have to explain what they're doing, but it's rare that
     we'll change things.  I mean, Suzanne has some questions at
     times about the English teacher in the ninth and tenth
     grade, about some of the coursework, she's asked that a
     certain text be (end of side one of tape) --Okay.  Let me
     give you an example.  If I wanted to, there was a teacher
     here that had a background in Soviet studies, it wasn't part
     of the initial program, but I felt that would be a good
     thing to do, and we did it.  It's as simple as that.  I
     mean, I didn't go to the board and say I would like to do
     this Soviet studies program.  I simply have to say that
     there was, you know, I wanted another $4,000 to have this
     course, there's so much on their budgets, about seven
     million, so $4000 is not something that would necessarily
     have to be asked about.   
So we offered it as an elective. On the other hand, so you can say I have a lot of authority and it would be a great deal on one hand, on the other hand, one could say the teachers have a great deal of determining what the curriculum is. It just depends on what the circumstances or what interest I have, but usually it will be a mutual decision.
 I mean, I have to have someone that I
     think is going to be important.  I always felt that we
     should -- I was the one who put typing in here as a
     requirement and that was a long time ago, but I just
     basically did it because I felt it was essential.  The same
     thing with the required computer course.  I had to find a
     teacher that was enthusiastic about doing that and sometimes
     these things come together, the teacher wants to do it, so
     it's not a matter of who is the one that's making those
     decisions, it's a mutual kind of thing.  So I have the
     possibility of having a great deal of influence.  The
     teachers are the same way.  
     
The board could, I guess -- see, we don't have an education committee on the board -- I view an education committee on the board as potentially dangerous because, in fact, there was one when I came and I let it die, because that is an area where they can easily lose sight of their responsibility. It becomes more of an advocacy group or something that maybe some parents may want. Now again, in being responsive to parents, that isn't necessarily bad, but when you have a formalized structure, it can get dangerous, as opposed to an informal structure where just some parents are saying that would be great if we had this or that, you know, once you formalize it, it can become a problem.
 On the other hand, if you structure it
     carefully enough, they can be an advocacy group of what you
     want, in other words, you go before the parent group, I mean
     you go before a board group and you say, listen, we really
     feel that we now need a computer program in our fourth,
     fifth and sixth grade level, and you justify before this
     group and then they become advocates for you with the board.
     Now that can take time but if you've got people -- your
     finance committee trying to cut your expenses -- your
     buildings and grounds are trying to spend money related to
     the buildings, you see -- so sometimes it is important to
     have an education group, my experience has been that you
     really have to spend a lot of time with it to be sure they
     don't get out of hand.  That was kind of straying from the
     point.  I think that's pretty much it.  It was teachers that
     we were last on, right?
 
Q.   How much influence you have on establishing curriculum.
 
A.   Yeah, curriculum.  So, I think the answer is that I have a
     lot of influence if I want to exert it.  But I have to be
     justified in what I want to do.  But I would say more
     frequently it will be a teacher that will say, "I would like
     to teach this course this year as an elective"  or "I would
     like to approach the world history course I've been teaching
     the last three years in a different manner."  But my
     influence then is having that discussion and working with
     the teacher in allowing two or three adults, whatever it is,
     to brainstorm how we can take the ideas that the teacher
     came with and make those ideas more effective.    Suzanne as
     the assistant head has had, I have tried to have her in the
     situation where she has been more involved with the direct
     curriculum over the last couple of years.  So she shall
     continue to look at that and she is good at that type of
     thing.  My Masters from Harvard happens to be in curriculum
     development and supervision so I know a lot about it, but
     I'm so busy it's not -- it's more people getting reactions
     to me within a half hour and giving them certain directions
     or reactions that they may be able to take and consider
     this.
 
Q.   How would your influence on determining instructional
     methods in the classroom?
 
A.   Well, that comes obviously with teacher evaluation, through
     teacher evaluations suggesting to them how things might be
     able to be done more effectively.  So, again, I would say
     that my role there is a great deal but, again, it's
     primarily the teachers.  My hands are not tied in any way.
     I could tell the teacher to go ahead and do it, I could tell
     them, and my, power is not the word, but it is such that
     they would have to do it but I've never got into that
     situation.  There are some teachers that -- I encourage a
     lot of teachers to move into overheads at one point when it
     became clear that when their back was against -- was to the
     kids a lot, and in this case it was a middle school, and I
     said, "You know, you're probably going to have better
     classroom management if you use an overhead when you face
     the kids," and some teachers did that and they found it was
     effective and that was a particular instructional technique.
     We talked about more group work with another teacher and
     that teacher followed up on those ideas and that became more
     effective.  Again, I'm a person that just simply tries to
     facilitate so that we move towards improvement in a variety
     of different areas.  And my experience is long -- I've been
     in education since 1964 and I've been in a lot of different
     experiences, so, you know, I think I have the respect on the
     part of various people that I work with that they'll at
     least try some of the suggestions that I make.
 
Q.   What is the influence you have on allocating funds?
 
A.   Well, pretty maximum.  I'm the one that sets the budget.  I
     work with department heads and they determine their budgets
     and we discuss back and forth what seems to make sense, so
     I'm constantly trying to balance against all the different
     needs that exist, and again the facilitator/moderators are
     there.  I will press them to be sure that they justify
     clearly how they want to spend the money so I'm the final
     approver of all those things.  Final from this point of
     view, and then there's a finance committee of the board and
     if they raise questions, then I have to justify why we need
     to spend money in this or that area.  Different people --
     like there's a different person for recruitment and
     admissions in terms of what their budget is, development,
     you know, the various athletic programs, those are all
     different people but I'm the person that they're dealing
     with in trying to set what those things are.  So I'm very
     influential in the area of funding.
 
Q.   How would you describe the influence you have on hiring new,
     full-time teachers?
 
A.   I'm it.  There's no one else.  I mean, I will solicit advice
     from people, I mean, for example, it is kind of interesting
     in reverse here.  Typically in a school, a department head
     will get a bunch of candidates, interview them, narrow it
     down to three, and then it goes to the headmaster.  Because
     our people are so busy, it's usually reversed. 
     
I'm the one that will usually go through all the applications, bring it down to about ten, call them in, interview these different people, then I make the final three selections, then I'll bring in at that point the department head or a couple of other teachers, have the person teach on campus, and then with, you know, with the faculty or the people that are directly involved, make that decision.
  You know, it's
     generally my decision almost alone.  S... has been
     involved more recently.  Typically she is not very much
     involved at all.
 
Q.   My research is directed at a current debate in education,
     and I think I talked to you about it the first time, about
     the researchers Chubb and Moe who did their work on holistic
     markets in American schools.  It's their claim that private
     school teachers have greater autonomy to innovate, adapt
     curriculum in teaching to meet the needs of the students,
     and that in doing so, they're primarily influenced by the
     students and the parents, not by school bureaucracy.
     Whereas public school teachers are subjected to a variety of
     influences and pressures that restrict their autonomy in
     meeting students' needs.  Among the influences on public
     school teachers are state and federal regulations, teachers'
     unions, court orders or the threat of litigation, and
     organizational rules called "bureaucracy."  Given that a
     public school might have a similar student population that
     you have and if it were a similar size to Greenfields, not a
     huge number of kids, what do you think the difference with
     the teacher autonomy might be, if any at all?
 
A.   Well, no matter what the size, all of those things that you
     mentioned in terms of regulations, federal and state,
     various kinds of orders, litigation, they still would exist.
     When I was the public system, the biggest problem was just
     simply getting -- sometimes the basic minimum things.  I
     worked in the inner-city of XXX  and in those
     situations, just getting the supplies you needed, getting
     things on time, there are many times that will beat you down
     in the system and they may be as an individual incident,
     minor, but they come in all the time, you know, it may be
     minor that you don't get your pencils, so you go out and buy
     your pencils.  It might be minor that your textbooks came
     three weeks late -- well, that's not minor -- it might be
     minor that the paper that you need comes late, it might be
     minor that you suddenly an incident with the administration,
     but all of those things in composite build up and they
     become burdensome and they can take away the incentive of
     people and their drive.  But I think the public schools
     would be way ahead of the game if they moved really to site
     base management where the principal had a lot of influence
     and have the freedom to work carefully with the teachers.
     I'm against teacher unions, I'm against tenure, it sets up a
     we/they situation and you need -- you've got to be a fair
     administrator because teacher unions come because people
     feel they are being taken advantage of.  So a system like
     mine is somewhat paternalistic, which can have its
     advantages and disadvantages.  But it seems to me if you're
     really fair, then you can be a "we" institution.  But things
     like teacher unions and tenured groups have a way of making
     things we/they, and I sometimes feel it's not necessarily in
     the best interest of the kids.  Teachers unions would argue
     against that but they are doing things, if the teachers are
     happy, then the kids will be happy.  I've not always seen
     that to be the case.  I think a contentious atmosphere is
     going to have an effect on a learning environment.  However,
     I think if schools are smaller, where there's less
     bureaucracy, I think decentralization is important.
     Assuming you hire good people that are going to run the
     school, then I think that public schools would be way ahead
     if they tended to be smaller and they tended to be, you
     know, once they allow teachers to make decisions along with
     administrators.
 
Q.   Do you think that can happen despite the federal
     regulations?
 
A.   I think there can be clear improvements.  See, the issue is
     the expense of it.  The whole concept of decentralization
     was an economic decision, you know, that you could just run
     things more efficiently, like it's based on big business,
     you know.  So there's a lot of consolidation with the
     concept that you wouldn't be building five gyms, you would
     have one central gym, you know, those kinds of expenses, and
     there's a certain legitimacy to that.  Even if you have
     large schools, there's nothing to say that you can't have
     more independence in each school from central authority.  I
     don't know enough about it, take textbooks, for example,
     it's all words or central, and everybody in the system is
     going to be using this book in U.S. History.  And if you
     have all these little sub-business managers in each high
     school and they're the ones that order the books for their
     high school because their high school wants different
     curriculum from -- XXX High wants something different
     from YYY and YYY wants something -- so you've got to
     have the administration within each high school to order all
     those different things, it's simply not going to be as
     efficient and cost-effective as if the entire system orders
     the same textbook and you're having one person do it at the
     central office.  So that's where you get into cost issues,
     you know.  So it's not an easy question, the answer, you
     know.  And I don't have enough experience from the central
     administration point of view to try to figure out how the
     system could become better.  I do feel, though, that if
     people are given more opportunity to be a part of the
     decision-making process, you're going to have better
     schools.  Motivation and enthusiasm are very important on
     the part of the adults, and my question is "How can you do
     that?"  So there's no easy answers on that.  I think schools
     will have an advantage if they're smaller, fewer kids per
     teachers, teachers have more say in how things are done, but
     I don't know if they can escape, for example, the suits, you
     know, you have the situation you send this kid to this or
     that, you've got this whole number -- you go through layers
     and layers of trying to be -- you turn over backwards of
     being fair because you're the public system and kids are
     allowed to go to school.  Here they don't.  I can dismiss a
     kid and that's it, you know, the contract is finished, the
     contract is for one year and they leave.  Public schools
     don't have that luxury, you know.  So it's just like
     administrators, principals letting teachers go, I mean, you
     know, if I had a big problem with a teacher, obviously I
     have to justify it, but I don't go through the same
     rigmarole that you have to go through in relation to public
     schools.  I mean, they have to do triple flips, you know, to
     justify that someone is really a lousy teacher, and that's
     hard to do, by the way, it's not easy to figure out who's
     ineffective, you know, it can just become -- as an
     administrator you are so busy with so many things, you can
     have one bad teacher and the amount of time that bad teacher
     will take is mind boggling, you know, to get all the stuff
     down on the paper and really record it so you've got really
     a strong case, and given the demands of the administrators
     in many of these places, they just don't have the time and
     therefore they don't have the energy unless they work every
     weekend, you know, to be able to face it.  And you may have
     two or three bad teachers in a given school and this is the
     bitch, you know, so you've got to let it go, and say, well,
     we'll just suffer along with this person, you know, or
     transfer them, the big thing where principals get together
     and say, "Okay, I'll take your worst and you take my worst
     and we'll just switch them around and hopefully maybe the
     different environment will make them to be a little bit
     better."  You know, you try to pressure them in some ways to
     make it unpleasant for them, try to get them out of the
     system.  But it's almost better to work a psychological game
     on them rather than trying to get the potential litigation
     and proof in order to get them freed from the system, just
     make it tough enough for them that they're just going to say
     that life is not worth it and take off, you know, leave.
     But those type of things take a tremendous amount of time.
     And people don't understand that generally.  So the answer
     is a tough one.  I think you have a better chance if you're
     smaller and you're site based when it comes to management.
     But you're still going to have problems.